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	<title>Comments on: Nope, We&#8217;re Not Doing That</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that</link>
	<description>Game mastering advice, ideas &#038; resources &#8226; Dedicated to helping GMs</description>
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		<title>By: What Good Improv Looks Like : Treasure Tables</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-13301</link>
		<dc:creator>What Good Improv Looks Like : Treasure Tables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-13301</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8226; Didn&#8217;t tell us he was winging it. Not a must, as noted, but more fun for everyone when it works. He didn&#8217;t miss a bit when making his wing it/don&#8217;t wing it decision. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8226; Didn&#8217;t tell us he was winging it. Not a must, as noted, but more fun for everyone when it works. He didn&#8217;t miss a bit when making his wing it/don&#8217;t wing it decision. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Metagame Elements and Transparency - Treasure Tables</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-13069</link>
		<dc:creator>Metagame Elements and Transparency - Treasure Tables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-13069</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8226; Nope, We&#8217;re Not Doing That: When your players decide to go in a completely unexpected direction and you&#8217;re not comfortable winging the session, taking a break and discussing that with them is a good idea. This falls solidly in the middle of the spectrum. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8226; Nope, We&#8217;re Not Doing That: When your players decide to go in a completely unexpected direction and you&#8217;re not comfortable winging the session, taking a break and discussing that with them is a good idea. This falls solidly in the middle of the spectrum. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ragoftag</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-13009</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragoftag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-13009</guid>
		<description>I always leave space for players to take the bit in their teeth. I had a game dragging to a dismal conclusion when a player &#039;suddenly realized&#039; that an escaped lackey was THE bad guy! He was wrong, but within a minute, the troupe had concocted a cunningly crafted and disguised plot behind the past several sessions. They were SO wrong! But they already &#039;knew&#039; how to proceed with foiling whatever plan the &#039;fake sidekick&#039; had. I backed off and let them cook and just tried to stay ahead of the tsunami. They told me what they where looking for and I cobbled to keep up. Another dozen games and it all came to a climactic finale aboard a blazing zeflyn (magic airship) that left 3 of 7 (?) characters dead and the whole group exhausted and satisfied. As we broke up that last game, everyone complimented me on me amazing and multilayer plotting. Over 25 years later, none of the players believe I didn&#039;t plan the whole thing from day one!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always leave space for players to take the bit in their teeth. I had a game dragging to a dismal conclusion when a player &#8216;suddenly realized&#8217; that an escaped lackey was THE bad guy! He was wrong, but within a minute, the troupe had concocted a cunningly crafted and disguised plot behind the past several sessions. They were SO wrong! But they already &#8216;knew&#8217; how to proceed with foiling whatever plan the &#8216;fake sidekick&#8217; had. I backed off and let them cook and just tried to stay ahead of the tsunami. They told me what they where looking for and I cobbled to keep up. Another dozen games and it all came to a climactic finale aboard a blazing zeflyn (magic airship) that left 3 of 7 (?) characters dead and the whole group exhausted and satisfied. As we broke up that last game, everyone complimented me on me amazing and multilayer plotting. Over 25 years later, none of the players believe I didn&#8217;t plan the whole thing from day one!</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-12907</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 14:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-12907</guid>
		<description>Ending sessions with the first big decision of the next session is a great idea, Alex and Russell -- I&#039;ve never thought of doing that. Cool!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ending sessions with the first big decision of the next session is a great idea, Alex and Russell &#8212; I&#8217;ve never thought of doing that. Cool!</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-12873</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-12873</guid>
		<description>As some of the others have pointed out, having the key decision point at the beginning of the session can be a problem.  The first game of my recently ended campaign, I got wind that the players would reject my intended hook before the game, and made up a list of other adventures for them to pick from (all of whom shared a few initial ``random&#039;&#039; encounters.)  After that, I tried to make the major decision points at the end of sessions or off-line (which means on-line, as in discussion by Internet.)  I also prepare a number of options for likely responses, trying to reuse ingredients without limiting choices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As some of the others have pointed out, having the key decision point at the beginning of the session can be a problem.  The first game of my recently ended campaign, I got wind that the players would reject my intended hook before the game, and made up a list of other adventures for them to pick from (all of whom shared a few initial &#8220;random&#8221; encounters.)  After that, I tried to make the major decision points at the end of sessions or off-line (which means on-line, as in discussion by Internet.)  I also prepare a number of options for likely responses, trying to reuse ingredients without limiting choices.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-12870</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-12870</guid>
		<description>(Sarlax) &lt;i&gt;One thing to keep in mind: the players *always* wing it.&lt;/i&gt;

This ties in well with Al&#039;s comment about minimal prep, and it points towards an entire GMing style -- one where the GM essentially creates NPCs and relationships in counterpoint to the PCs, and the whole group wings it from there.

Interestingly enough given our game this weekend, this style is part of what &lt;i&gt;Burning Empires&lt;/i&gt; is all about (ditto with &lt;i&gt;Burning Wheel&lt;/i&gt;): relationship maps driving play.

Clayton: Welcome to TT! It does indeed sound like you should play to your GMing strengths, and sketch out loose adventure structures with big holes for you to improvise in.

(Rick) &lt;i&gt;I can appreciate the concept, but in practice I thin the players who do this too often are just being tools.&lt;/i&gt;

I see where you&#039;re coming from. I&#039;d say that if a group of players consistently veers away from the obvious adventure path, then the GM and the players aren&#039;t on the same page about the game -- and if they don&#039;t discuss that, something&#039;s going to give.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Sarlax) <i>One thing to keep in mind: the players *always* wing it.</i></p>
<p>This ties in well with Al&#8217;s comment about minimal prep, and it points towards an entire GMing style &#8212; one where the GM essentially creates NPCs and relationships in counterpoint to the PCs, and the whole group wings it from there.</p>
<p>Interestingly enough given our game this weekend, this style is part of what <i>Burning Empires</i> is all about (ditto with <i>Burning Wheel</i>): relationship maps driving play.</p>
<p>Clayton: Welcome to TT! It does indeed sound like you should play to your GMing strengths, and sketch out loose adventure structures with big holes for you to improvise in.</p>
<p>(Rick) <i>I can appreciate the concept, but in practice I thin the players who do this too often are just being tools.</i></p>
<p>I see where you&#8217;re coming from. I&#8217;d say that if a group of players consistently veers away from the obvious adventure path, then the GM and the players aren&#8217;t on the same page about the game &#8212; and if they don&#8217;t discuss that, something&#8217;s going to give.</p>
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		<title>By: AlexAvery</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-12852</link>
		<dc:creator>AlexAvery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-12852</guid>
		<description>What my game group does is we always end the Mission with the very beginning of the next one.  We all know what we are going to do next time we play that game (We cycle about 3 games to give the DMs time to prep the next mission).  None of us are jerks enough to say &quot;forget it we are just going to ignore the kings request to find his missing daughter,and go to the goblin&#039;s cave instead).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What my game group does is we always end the Mission with the very beginning of the next one.  We all know what we are going to do next time we play that game (We cycle about 3 games to give the DMs time to prep the next mission).  None of us are jerks enough to say &#8220;forget it we are just going to ignore the kings request to find his missing daughter,and go to the goblin&#8217;s cave instead).</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Filz</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-12831</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Filz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-12831</guid>
		<description>I think the key here is to make sure the constraints of the campaign are well established. Within those constraints (or even possibly stretching them just a bit), go with the flow. The constraints may be set for any of a number of reasons.

Jeff - highly constrained games work just fine for games with higher dramatic stakes. Dogs in the Vinyard is a great example. The GM prepares a town and the players play that town. Not much choice. But HOW they play that town? They might come in guns a blazing. Or they might decide the most innocent victim is the sorceror. The GM has to roll with that. But the GM doesn&#039;t have to roll with: &quot;No, we don&#039;t go to Winter Creek, we go back to Superstition Gulch instead.&quot;

As Rick says, players who try and burst outside the constraints are being tools.

Of course the key is to have reasonable constraints. If your constraints are &quot;I&#039;ve already written the story, if you try and play it out wrong I&#039;ll yell and scream,&quot; the game probably won&#039;t work.

Frank</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the key here is to make sure the constraints of the campaign are well established. Within those constraints (or even possibly stretching them just a bit), go with the flow. The constraints may be set for any of a number of reasons.</p>
<p>Jeff &#8211; highly constrained games work just fine for games with higher dramatic stakes. Dogs in the Vinyard is a great example. The GM prepares a town and the players play that town. Not much choice. But HOW they play that town? They might come in guns a blazing. Or they might decide the most innocent victim is the sorceror. The GM has to roll with that. But the GM doesn&#8217;t have to roll with: &#8220;No, we don&#8217;t go to Winter Creek, we go back to Superstition Gulch instead.&#8221;</p>
<p>As Rick says, players who try and burst outside the constraints are being tools.</p>
<p>Of course the key is to have reasonable constraints. If your constraints are &#8220;I&#8217;ve already written the story, if you try and play it out wrong I&#8217;ll yell and scream,&#8221; the game probably won&#8217;t work.</p>
<p>Frank</p>
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		<title>By: Rick the Wonder Algae</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-12823</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick the Wonder Algae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-12823</guid>
		<description>I can appreciate the concept, but in practice I thin the players who do this too often are just being tools.  If they want to go a specific direction, at the start of the game is NOT the time to tell you.  at the end of last week&#039;s game, or a few days before via a phone call or e-mail is much more appropriate.  Sure, the unexpected happens now and again, but for the most part, the characters can afford to do what&#039;s planned and tackle what they wanted to do next week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can appreciate the concept, but in practice I thin the players who do this too often are just being tools.  If they want to go a specific direction, at the start of the game is NOT the time to tell you.  at the end of last week&#8217;s game, or a few days before via a phone call or e-mail is much more appropriate.  Sure, the unexpected happens now and again, but for the most part, the characters can afford to do what&#8217;s planned and tackle what they wanted to do next week.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-12814</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 04:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-12814</guid>
		<description>I once ran an entire campaign completely improvised. Not recommended unless you&#039;re very good at looking things up quickly, but it&#039;s a lot of fun if you can pull it off. It&#039;s also interesting to see where the game goes when the players have that much control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I once ran an entire campaign completely improvised. Not recommended unless you&#8217;re very good at looking things up quickly, but it&#8217;s a lot of fun if you can pull it off. It&#8217;s also interesting to see where the game goes when the players have that much control.</p>
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		<title>By: VV_GM</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-12784</link>
		<dc:creator>VV_GM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 01:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-12784</guid>
		<description>Wing it. Take what you had planned and repackage it if you can, but I think just letting the players tell you what they want will be all that you need to improvise a fun session. Granted, I improvise a lot nowadays and find it to be a lot of fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wing it. Take what you had planned and repackage it if you can, but I think just letting the players tell you what they want will be all that you need to improvise a fun session. Granted, I improvise a lot nowadays and find it to be a lot of fun.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt C</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/09/nope-were-not-doing-that/comment-page-1#comment-12783</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 00:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=846#comment-12783</guid>
		<description>The beauty of D&amp;D (or any crunch-heavy game) is that two or three random combat encounters can buy you enough time to get through a session while winging it (giving you time to integrate those random encounters into the new direction).

That said, my players are usually savvy enough to realize when they are &quot;resisting the story&quot; and go in the planned direction, usually after a good-natured jibe or two.

Walt C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The beauty of D&amp;D (or any crunch-heavy game) is that two or three random combat encounters can buy you enough time to get through a session while winging it (giving you time to integrate those random encounters into the new direction).</p>
<p>That said, my players are usually savvy enough to realize when they are &#8220;resisting the story&#8221; and go in the planned direction, usually after a good-natured jibe or two.</p>
<p>Walt C</p>
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