Otherwise, I agree with you.

Frank

I played in a game where the AC numbers were hidden until we discovered them, and I enjoyed it very much. At one point we had a player who would metagame the ACs (Troll, with a breastplate… he’ll be AC 21), and it was very annoying, knowing in advance the numbers necessary. It really takes some of the sense of mystery and discovery out of the game.

Boiling it down to a straight numbers game is similar to saying, “There’s a secret door in the south wall that leads to the treasure room, if anyone can roll a DC25 Search check.” (Extreme example, admittedly.)

That said, there are definitely some caveats. Don’t hide every target number – if you’ve got any ranks in Climb, you should know the DC of a rough cliff face. And give hints liberally – Armor’s obvious, but Mage Armor isn’t until you engage in combat.

Frank, rest of you AC hiding people, how important part as a game you see the discovering the AC instead of hearing them? On scale 1-10? Have you played how many games that you do get the numbers upfront? What was the thing you really don’t like. Actual examples only.

And search/spot rolls? How important is it for you, as a player that you do not get to know that you failed a search/spot check or similar ‘counter-example’ of open DC:s? How many games you’ve played that you get the numbers upfront? Why were they worse? Actual examples, please?

.. Also if someone would explain to me, why having an extimate of probability which is (kinda) estimate of effect is more tactical than just knowing probability? Tactics is about applying limited resources in optimal way, so how can it be more tactical with less information? I can see that if you have way of applying resources to learn stuff, but..

(iz contenshus martin! I iz involved)

Martin: why discover the ACs? When tactical, gamist play is the game style, I think it makes sense. Sure, players ARE good at figuring out ACs, but it still allows them to develop and use a skill. Also, while the players will figure out the ACs pretty quick, they still have to commit themselves to the combat to discover them.

In a less gamist game, or one not focused so much on tactics, then it may make more sense to be open with AC. I also agree with your comment about hero points, but the use of hero points is definitely a different game style than the hard core tactical/gamist that makes AC discovery an element of play.

I should also note that discovery of AC is probably acceptable/good in some forms of simulationism, which can have just as much focus on tactical combat, just with a different goal. In fact, some might argue that such “in character” discovery is a hallmark of simulationism, though in fact it isn’t.

Frank

This goes double when players have to consider spending constrained resources like action points to boost rolls. It sucks to spend an AP and find out later that you hit without it.

If, as a GM, you put a lot of effort into describing foes in ways that indicate how tough they’re going to be to hit/damage, that seems like a viable alternative. Even then, though, I think I’d rather just know the AC.

I actually expected this to be a more contentious topic than it’s proved to be so far.

FWIW, I play D&D pretty exclusively.

Wow, I just agreed with Frank. Is that a sign of the End Times?

Telas

And it’s not just about individual play style but on how the game itself is constructed. Can you imagine even trying to give away numbers in HackMaster? If the players didn’t kill you for trying, you still have all the wonky formula to try to “explain” which will never work anyway. The game is designed to have that obstacle built into certain rolls.

Imagine(the rpg) has an actual explanation and an in-game mechanical way of discovering those numbers if you want them. It is still one of my group’s favorite games because of those features.

And, of course, there is play style to consider. A group ( like mine ) that loves HackMaster is not going to want the numbers “disclosed” even in a d20 game.

So… this wouldn’t go over well with my regular group and in fact I sometimes get chewed out for accidentally giving away numbers. Thanks but no thanks.

I think the bigger issue is “why am I asking for this roll?” It’s now a big pet peeve of mine when playing where the DM asks everyone to make a Listen check, and then individually asks everyone for their rolls, and then points out who made it (though sometimes forgetting in the process!) It’s much easier to just have everyone roll and either tell them “If you rolled higher than X, you hear this…” OR say “Whoever rolled the highest hears this…”

I am all for disclosing DCs anytime a character could make a reasonable evaluation as to the difficulty, though I could see having occaisions where it might make sense to lie (because there is some kind of trap involved, or the PC is using an as yet unanalyzed magic item). Of course in the case of search checks, where the PC doesn’t have a reasonable way to evaluate difficulty, then it would be reasonable to keep the DC secret. Even then, sometimes it might be reasonable to say something like: “The DC for finding the missing ring in this particular room is 30 because of the heaps of trash.” Of course it would also be reasonable for the GM to secretly keep that the DC is actually 35, because it isn’t the trash the PCs have to sort through, but they have to find a hidden compartment under the trash.

Of course how DCs are shared depends totally on the style of play. There are some styles of play for which making almost everything public improves the game. Other styles of play require at least some hidden knowledge and surprises.

Frank

With AC, I don’t give it away initially, but usually reveal it after a few rounds. Initially, the players enjoy trying to guess and discover which enemies are easy to hit and which are hard. But later revealing the AC allows the game to move faster.

So a good mix of both hidden and revealed values seems to work best for me. The key is to tailor it to what the players enjoy.

Similarly, I nearly, almost always reveal saving throw, ability, or skill check requirements if it will add to the game. Who doesn’t love watching the entire party cringe when the player with the lowest dex is forced to “roll under an eight” on a d20?

Sometimes…hardly ever…almost never…do I just ask a player to roll a die without knowing why. On the rare occasion when I do ask for a blind roll, the players know something is up. The die is rolled, the players look up expectantly, and I stare at the die, shaking my head slightly as though I am disheartened for their sakes, or incredulously like I can’t believe the number. At that point the tension builds immensely and you can feel the excitement in the air.

All that said, I guess I agree with Stupid ranger who said “it depends on the group and on the specific encounter which method works best,” but in general I usually prefer to let them know where they stand.