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	<title>Comments on: Help Your Players Hone their PCs During Chargen</title>
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	<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen</link>
	<description>Game mastering advice, ideas &#038; resources &#8226; Dedicated to helping GMs</description>
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		<title>By: GMPCs: A Two-Edged GMing Tool - Treasure Tables</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-12091</link>
		<dc:creator>GMPCs: A Two-Edged GMing Tool - Treasure Tables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2007 19:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-12091</guid>
		<description>[...] In the comments on Help Your Playerss Hone their PCs During Chargen, TT reader Telas suggested this topic: “Good vs bad GMPCs…” (Thanks, Telas!) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In the comments on Help Your Playerss Hone their PCs During Chargen, TT reader Telas suggested this topic: “Good vs bad GMPCs…” (Thanks, Telas!) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Preserving a Sense of Mystery About Your Games - Treasure Tables</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11509</link>
		<dc:creator>Preserving a Sense of Mystery About Your Games - Treasure Tables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 21:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11509</guid>
		<description>[...] Take character creation, for example. That&#8217;s not an area where you want any mystery at all for a long-term game: your players should know exactly what to expect, and you should help them create PCs that will be fun to play. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Take character creation, for example. That&#8217;s not an area where you want any mystery at all for a long-term game: your players should know exactly what to expect, and you should help them create PCs that will be fun to play. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Filz</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11495</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Filz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11495</guid>
		<description>That was something I liked about Everyway, except I never really figured out how to play Everyway, and those questions seemed to not result in anything.

Dogs in the Vinyard is a better example of this idea, though the cooperation among players during chargen is more informal. However, it is also followed by a formal &quot;initiation&quot; that focuses on one character at a time, and both helps introduce the game mechanics, and also allows the player to help define his PC.

Frank</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was something I liked about Everyway, except I never really figured out how to play Everyway, and those questions seemed to not result in anything.</p>
<p>Dogs in the Vinyard is a better example of this idea, though the cooperation among players during chargen is more informal. However, it is also followed by a formal &#8220;initiation&#8221; that focuses on one character at a time, and both helps introduce the game mechanics, and also allows the player to help define his PC.</p>
<p>Frank</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Drain&#8217;s D20 Source &#187; Links Roundup</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11493</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Drain&#8217;s D20 Source &#187; Links Roundup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11493</guid>
		<description>[...] Treasure Tables: Help your players hone their PCs during chargen [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Treasure Tables: Help your players hone their PCs during chargen [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Dougan</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11481</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Dougan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jun 2007 01:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11481</guid>
		<description>The discussion here has been largely mechanical -- let me throw out something from another game system that helps with the -character- part of character creation.

Everway has built in a round of questions that the players ask each other, more or less in-character. Each character is able to ask one question of every other PC.

The questions are usually based off of some short blurbs the players write about the characters, but the results -really- help get a better handle on how the character is going to function.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The discussion here has been largely mechanical &#8212; let me throw out something from another game system that helps with the -character- part of character creation.</p>
<p>Everway has built in a round of questions that the players ask each other, more or less in-character. Each character is able to ask one question of every other PC.</p>
<p>The questions are usually based off of some short blurbs the players write about the characters, but the results -really- help get a better handle on how the character is going to function.</p>
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		<title>By: John Arcadian</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11468</link>
		<dc:creator>John Arcadian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11468</guid>
		<description>Definitely when playing in a themed game there is a need to fit niches with characters and NPCs. With a licensed property you are &quot;generally&quot; playing to the property&#039;s theme and thus it is helpful to have the things they plan for.  Those kind of NPC&#039;s I prefer to keep in the background.  I used to (back in youth of my DND days) always have a healer NPC travel with the party. Now instead of that I make sure that healer services are available &quot;in town&quot; or &quot;back at the camp&quot; instead of providing someone to molly coddle the party. My  play style has changed greatly  since those days, so the necessity to have someone to patch up the PC&#039;s isn&#039;t that necessary anymore.  Still if I have to use those kind of NPCs then they are rarely more than a shadowy presence to the characters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Definitely when playing in a themed game there is a need to fit niches with characters and NPCs. With a licensed property you are &#8220;generally&#8221; playing to the property&#8217;s theme and thus it is helpful to have the things they plan for.  Those kind of NPC&#8217;s I prefer to keep in the background.  I used to (back in youth of my DND days) always have a healer NPC travel with the party. Now instead of that I make sure that healer services are available &#8220;in town&#8221; or &#8220;back at the camp&#8221; instead of providing someone to molly coddle the party. My  play style has changed greatly  since those days, so the necessity to have someone to patch up the PC&#8217;s isn&#8217;t that necessary anymore.  Still if I have to use those kind of NPCs then they are rarely more than a shadowy presence to the characters.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Filz</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11456</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Filz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11456</guid>
		<description>Hmm, I&#039;d still question what is going on, why a niche that is critical to the game (in this case the feel of the game - which suggests that this might be a simulationist game [per Ron Edwards&#039;s Big Model]) is not interesting enough for a player to play. Now it may not be a matter of being interesting enough to play. It may be that there are more niches than players.

Hmm, another possible niche for a GMPC, the &quot;commander.&quot; Let&#039;s say you&#039;re playing Star Trek. You decide to focus on bridge crew, which means Scotty and McCoy are legitimate NPCs. But perhaps you don&#039;t want to put a player above the others. So you decide Kirk will be an NPC. But clearly Kirk will be a foreground character, and will act more like a PC. Now other bridge crew that the players don&#039;t play as PCs may well be able to be a regular NPC (play won&#039;t focus on their niches).

(I&#039;ve never seen Stargate, so I don&#039;t have the reference, but I get the idea being raised).

A more general Star Trek campaign of course has to have Scotty, McCoy, Kirk, Sulu, etc. And then there may very well be more niches than players, and you still want to focus on engineering issues some, so Scotty becomes a foreground NPC, a GMPC if you will.

Frank</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, I&#8217;d still question what is going on, why a niche that is critical to the game (in this case the feel of the game &#8211; which suggests that this might be a simulationist game [per Ron Edwards's Big Model]) is not interesting enough for a player to play. Now it may not be a matter of being interesting enough to play. It may be that there are more niches than players.</p>
<p>Hmm, another possible niche for a GMPC, the &#8220;commander.&#8221; Let&#8217;s say you&#8217;re playing Star Trek. You decide to focus on bridge crew, which means Scotty and McCoy are legitimate NPCs. But perhaps you don&#8217;t want to put a player above the others. So you decide Kirk will be an NPC. But clearly Kirk will be a foreground character, and will act more like a PC. Now other bridge crew that the players don&#8217;t play as PCs may well be able to be a regular NPC (play won&#8217;t focus on their niches).</p>
<p>(I&#8217;ve never seen Stargate, so I don&#8217;t have the reference, but I get the idea being raised).</p>
<p>A more general Star Trek campaign of course has to have Scotty, McCoy, Kirk, Sulu, etc. And then there may very well be more niches than players, and you still want to focus on engineering issues some, so Scotty becomes a foreground NPC, a GMPC if you will.</p>
<p>Frank</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11455</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11455</guid>
		<description>(Frank) &lt;i&gt;I think something is wrong with the game system or the campaign if a particular niche is so important to the success of the game that an NPC must fill that niche if a player doesn’t, yet the niche is boring enough that a player will choose to play the second fighter instead of the thief.&lt;/i&gt;

Coming back to my Stargate example, it isn&#039;t that this niche is boring or mission-critical from a game design standpoint -- it&#039;s the fact that to emulate the feel of Stargate, you kind of need a Daniel Jackson character, and none of the PCs fit the bill. I think that&#039;s a great reason to fill a niche with a GMPC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Frank) <i>I think something is wrong with the game system or the campaign if a particular niche is so important to the success of the game that an NPC must fill that niche if a player doesn’t, yet the niche is boring enough that a player will choose to play the second fighter instead of the thief.</i></p>
<p>Coming back to my Stargate example, it isn&#8217;t that this niche is boring or mission-critical from a game design standpoint &#8212; it&#8217;s the fact that to emulate the feel of Stargate, you kind of need a Daniel Jackson character, and none of the PCs fit the bill. I think that&#8217;s a great reason to fill a niche with a GMPC.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Filz</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11448</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Filz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11448</guid>
		<description>While I in the past justified GMPCs as niche fillers, these days I&#039;m starting to question that. I think something is wrong with the game system or the campaign if a particular niche is so important to the success of the game that an NPC must fill that niche if a player doesn&#039;t, yet the niche is boring enough that a player will choose to play the second fighter instead of the thief.

Now sometimes this may be an issue of the players not totally buying into the genre of the game, in which case the GM should consider how to modify the genre to fit the players better. It may turn out that an NPC filling the niche is the easiest way to handle it. On the other hand, a cleric can be dispensed with by easing up (but not eliminating) undead, providing plenty of access to healing potions and such, and perhaps by allowing other caster types to have healing spells also.

Unfortunately, a niche filling NPC will occaisionally steal the limelight. If it steals the limelight often enough, perhaps a player will realize that niche actually could be interesting.

Other reasons for NPCs (and potential GMPCs) that don&#039;t really relate to this topic are:

- increasing party size because the number of players doesn&#039;t produce enough PCs for effective play.

- giving the GM a &quot;voice&quot; in the game (dangerous in a narativist game, quite possibly totally acceptible in a simulationist game, might work or not in a gamist game)

- giving the GM an opportunity to &quot;play&quot; in a game that doesn&#039;t give the GM enough of the right triggers (D&amp;D from modules may be an example here, the GM may not get much creative input, also, the GM doesn&#039;t get the opportunity for long term strategic planning - though he does get to look forward to using more and more cool monsters as the PCs rise in level).

- stabilizing the size of the party when player attendance is variable

Ars Magica is an example of another solution to the boring, but necessary, niche problem. Rotate the duties among the players.

In the end, I think the GM needs to use a combination of:

- mentoring players during chargen
- modifying the campaign to fit the players desires
- providing filler NPCs or other mechanisms for missing PC niches
- letting the chips fall where they may

Frank</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I in the past justified GMPCs as niche fillers, these days I&#8217;m starting to question that. I think something is wrong with the game system or the campaign if a particular niche is so important to the success of the game that an NPC must fill that niche if a player doesn&#8217;t, yet the niche is boring enough that a player will choose to play the second fighter instead of the thief.</p>
<p>Now sometimes this may be an issue of the players not totally buying into the genre of the game, in which case the GM should consider how to modify the genre to fit the players better. It may turn out that an NPC filling the niche is the easiest way to handle it. On the other hand, a cleric can be dispensed with by easing up (but not eliminating) undead, providing plenty of access to healing potions and such, and perhaps by allowing other caster types to have healing spells also.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, a niche filling NPC will occaisionally steal the limelight. If it steals the limelight often enough, perhaps a player will realize that niche actually could be interesting.</p>
<p>Other reasons for NPCs (and potential GMPCs) that don&#8217;t really relate to this topic are:</p>
<p>- increasing party size because the number of players doesn&#8217;t produce enough PCs for effective play.</p>
<p>- giving the GM a &#8220;voice&#8221; in the game (dangerous in a narativist game, quite possibly totally acceptible in a simulationist game, might work or not in a gamist game)</p>
<p>- giving the GM an opportunity to &#8220;play&#8221; in a game that doesn&#8217;t give the GM enough of the right triggers (D&amp;D from modules may be an example here, the GM may not get much creative input, also, the GM doesn&#8217;t get the opportunity for long term strategic planning &#8211; though he does get to look forward to using more and more cool monsters as the PCs rise in level).</p>
<p>- stabilizing the size of the party when player attendance is variable</p>
<p>Ars Magica is an example of another solution to the boring, but necessary, niche problem. Rotate the duties among the players.</p>
<p>In the end, I think the GM needs to use a combination of:</p>
<p>- mentoring players during chargen<br />
- modifying the campaign to fit the players desires<br />
- providing filler NPCs or other mechanisms for missing PC niches<br />
- letting the chips fall where they may</p>
<p>Frank</p>
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		<title>By: thebrownshow</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11441</link>
		<dc:creator>thebrownshow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11441</guid>
		<description>In the few times I&#039;ve had to run GMPCs, I&#039;ve specifically built them as non-combatants.  Filling in for missing skills is one thing, but having a GMPC get the final hit on a BBEG just doesn&#039;t feel right to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the few times I&#8217;ve had to run GMPCs, I&#8217;ve specifically built them as non-combatants.  Filling in for missing skills is one thing, but having a GMPC get the final hit on a BBEG just doesn&#8217;t feel right to me.</p>
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		<title>By: brcarl</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11434</link>
		<dc:creator>brcarl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11434</guid>
		<description>Martin wrote:
&lt;i&gt;They each have skills that none of the PCs possess, but our GM is careful not to steal the limelight — and the stuff they do (archaelogy and linguistics) isn’t exciting to us anyway.&lt;/i&gt;

These are two keys to good GMPCs: they never (or very rarely) look better than the PCs, and what they are good at are things that the players don&#039;t really care about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin wrote:<br />
<i>They each have skills that none of the PCs possess, but our GM is careful not to steal the limelight — and the stuff they do (archaelogy and linguistics) isn’t exciting to us anyway.</i></p>
<p>These are two keys to good GMPCs: they never (or very rarely) look better than the PCs, and what they are good at are things that the players don&#8217;t really care about.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/06/help-your-players-hone-their-pcs-during-chargen/comment-page-1#comment-11432</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=756#comment-11432</guid>
		<description>Fixed -- thanks for catching that, Telas!

And you&#039;re right, GMPCs would be a good post topic. I think I&#039;ll take that one out for a spin soon. Thank you for the idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fixed &#8212; thanks for catching that, Telas!</p>
<p>And you&#8217;re right, GMPCs would be a good post topic. I think I&#8217;ll take that one out for a spin soon. Thank you for the idea.</p>
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