Comments on: When PCs are on the Line, Talk it Out http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out Game mastering advice, ideas & resources • Dedicated to helping GMs Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:04:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Cayzle http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9267 Cayzle Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:37:58 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9267 I think that the more openness in DMing, the better. I also think that it is better to give the players more info -- especially about the mechanics of the game. I think that two good ways to do that are through good maps and open die rolling. I was inspired by this post to write a screed of my own -- feel free to check it out: http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/click044.html I think that the more openness in DMing, the better. I also think that it is better to give the players more info — especially about the mechanics of the game. I think that two good ways to do that are through good maps and open die rolling. I was inspired by this post to write a screed of my own — feel free to check it out:

http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/click044.html

]]> By: brcarl http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9233 brcarl Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:30:12 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9233 I think one way that groups can rationalize helping PCs with rule specifics and strategic suggestions is to consider the acting PC's intelligence attribute. I've always felt it was unfair to expect my feeble brain to properly emulate, say, any massive genius spell-caster PCs I play, because in those cases my PC is waaaay smarter than I am. Back to the point: in situations like the one Martin describes, if his druid had a high intelligence attribute, then as a DM I would not only openly help, but encourage the whole group -- including the player of the disabled PC -- to chime in. If the intelligence attribute was normal, maybe make him figure it out himself. If the PC was dumb as a post, make him do something appropriately stupid -- or have a good reason why he was acting so smart. Still, I appreciate the need to "have fun" and the bummitude that comes with losing a good PC. "Do what will make the most fun (in the long run)" is still Rule #1. I think one way that groups can rationalize helping PCs with rule specifics and strategic suggestions is to consider the acting PC’s intelligence attribute. I’ve always felt it was unfair to expect my feeble brain to properly emulate, say, any massive genius spell-caster PCs I play, because in those cases my PC is waaaay smarter than I am.

Back to the point: in situations like the one Martin describes, if his druid had a high intelligence attribute, then as a DM I would not only openly help, but encourage the whole group — including the player of the disabled PC — to chime in. If the intelligence attribute was normal, maybe make him figure it out himself. If the PC was dumb as a post, make him do something appropriately stupid — or have a good reason why he was acting so smart.

Still, I appreciate the need to “have fun” and the bummitude that comes with losing a good PC. “Do what will make the most fun (in the long run)” is still Rule #1.

]]> By: longcoat000 http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9218 longcoat000 Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:11:20 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9218 I had a GM who used to do that exact same thing for our Ninjas & Superspies mash-up games. Right before we hit the big bad (if we were really hurting), he'd stop the game, let us calculate experience and level up if we could before handing us the smack-down. His motto was, "I'm going to try my hardest to save you, but I'm also going to try my hardest to kill you." I had a GM who used to do that exact same thing for our Ninjas & Superspies mash-up games. Right before we hit the big bad (if we were really hurting), he’d stop the game, let us calculate experience and level up if we could before handing us the smack-down. His motto was, “I’m going to try my hardest to save you, but I’m also going to try my hardest to kill you.”

]]> By: ScottM http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9209 ScottM Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:25:09 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9209 That sounds like a cool way to do it Mamawl. You can almost hear the characters practicing at night... "When the mage calls out Blue 32, you Bulls Rush their champion, Jorge, I'll prepare a magic missile..." That sounds like a cool way to do it Mamawl. You can almost hear the characters practicing at night… “When the mage calls out Blue 32, you Bulls Rush their champion, Jorge, I’ll prepare a magic missile…”

]]> By: Mamawi http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9207 Mamawi Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:51:08 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9207 Excellent idea. Here's something similar that we do in our group: we break the action at the end of every round and I let the players make as detailed plans as they want. Often they don't have anything to talk about and we simply move on to the next round, but sometimes they come up with complex plans that require looking up rules or a variety of delay and ready actions to effect the plan. We find it helps everyone make maximum use of their class abilities/feats etc and the game rules as well (who wants to hold everything up to re-read the bullrush rules unless all the players are involved in the planning). So far it has worked really well, generating lots of interesting action, and it gives me as the dm a chance to think about tactics for the bad guys too. We balance the planning by prohibiting anything except the "free action shout to your buddy" sort of communication once the round is underway. Excellent idea. Here’s something similar that we do in our group: we break the action at the end of every round and I let the players make as detailed plans as they want. Often they don’t have anything to talk about and we simply move on to the next round, but sometimes they come up with complex plans that require looking up rules or a variety of delay and ready actions to effect the plan. We find it helps everyone make maximum use of their class abilities/feats etc and the game rules as well (who wants to hold everything up to re-read the bullrush rules unless all the players are involved in the planning). So far it has worked really well, generating lots of interesting action, and it gives me as the dm a chance to think about tactics for the bad guys too. We balance the planning by prohibiting anything except the “free action shout to your buddy” sort of communication once the round is underway.

]]> By: Victor http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9205 Victor Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:32:18 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9205 That sounds like an awesome game. It's a really big change from the classic gaming idea of "Players VS GM". This way around, it's all about the players and GM working together to make the evening more fun for everyone. --Victor That sounds like an awesome game. It’s a really big change from the classic gaming idea of “Players VS GM”. This way around, it’s all about the players and GM working together to make the evening more fun for everyone.

–Victor

]]> By: Brian http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9203 Brian Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:21:38 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9203 When I DM, I try to have the players feel like I'm on their side during those tense moements as well (not all the time perhaps, but when things are at that nail biting phase). I notice I cheer when they make that save right along with them. Something I've been doing more of lately is trying not to get quite to that one save or die situation. I've played some of the more intelligent foes differently since they often can surmise that they can kill a character, but not survive the battle. They go for personal gain in place of killing the PCs. In yesterdays game, the demon used a suggestion, not to try to take out the PC, but to get hold of his nice +3, keen, speed greatsword. Once it had that, it was glad to escape with teleport at 1/2 hp. The players took it almost as hard as PC death, but they have pulled together and are on a mission to get that sword back. So here the roll wasn't vs death, but vs gear. Now they have a new favorite enemy. It's opened up a lot of possibilites for the campaign. When I DM, I try to have the players feel like I’m on their side during those tense moements as well (not all the time perhaps, but when things are at that nail biting phase). I notice I cheer when they make that save right along with them.

Something I’ve been doing more of lately is trying not to get quite to that one save or die situation. I’ve played some of the more intelligent foes differently since they often can surmise that they can kill a character, but not survive the battle. They go for personal gain in place of killing the PCs. In yesterdays game, the demon used a suggestion, not to try to take out the PC, but to get hold of his nice +3, keen, speed greatsword. Once it had that, it was glad to escape with teleport at 1/2 hp.

The players took it almost as hard as PC death, but they have pulled together and are on a mission to get that sword back. So here the roll wasn’t vs death, but vs gear. Now they have a new favorite enemy. It’s opened up a lot of possibilites for the campaign.

]]> By: Martin http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9202 Martin Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:21:33 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9202 I'm glad this approach strikes a chord, and I agree that pacing is an important consideration. (Abulia) <i>Martin, you neglected to mention (or notice) how quiet Don was during said discussion.</i> Good point. I've edited the post to include this detail. I was really surprised that you didn't speak up, and it's interesting to hear exactly why that was. I admire your approach, and it's probably the opposite of what I would have done. I’m glad this approach strikes a chord, and I agree that pacing is an important consideration.

(Abulia) Martin, you neglected to mention (or notice) how quiet Don was during said discussion.

Good point. I’ve edited the post to include this detail.

I was really surprised that you didn’t speak up, and it’s interesting to hear exactly why that was. I admire your approach, and it’s probably the opposite of what I would have done.

]]> By: Telas http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9201 Telas Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:03:14 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9201 Cool story, and good DMing. The more I game, the more I realize that very few things are graven in stone. Official rules, house rules, interpretations, "social contracts", etc... All are malleable under the proper circumstances. (Including this realization.) FWIW, I will occasionally act as character subconscious or common sense when a player tries something stupid, whether through lack of knowledge of the situation, or lack of knowledge of the rules. I never dictate behavior, just remind of facts. In a case like the one above, I think you just gave me another option. :D Cool story, and good DMing.

The more I game, the more I realize that very few things are graven in stone. Official rules, house rules, interpretations, “social contracts”, etc… All are malleable under the proper circumstances. (Including this realization.)

FWIW, I will occasionally act as character subconscious or common sense when a player tries something stupid, whether through lack of knowledge of the situation, or lack of knowledge of the rules. I never dictate behavior, just remind of facts.

In a case like the one above, I think you just gave me another option. :D

]]> By: ScottM http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9200 ScottM Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:29:35 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9200 I agree-- a few moments spent making sure everything is clear can help prevent hours of problems. Just discussing how much hangs on the die roll can really increase tension too. On the other hand, it can really break pacing and drop people out of the moment, so be careful about doing it every battle. Also make sure that, as a GM, you aren't giving specific advice to keep the characters on the railroad tracks. I agree– a few moments spent making sure everything is clear can help prevent hours of problems. Just discussing how much hangs on the die roll can really increase tension too.

On the other hand, it can really break pacing and drop people out of the moment, so be careful about doing it every battle. Also make sure that, as a GM, you aren’t giving specific advice to keep the characters on the railroad tracks.

]]> By: Abulia http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9199 Abulia Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:28:47 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9199 Martin, you neglected to mention (or notice) how quiet Don was during said discussion. I wasn't going to input any bias as to what the group should do one way or the other; although my character was clearly affected by the outcome, I did't think it was appropriate to dictate what the group should do simply because it was my character. The group came up with the idea and the resolution by yourselves and I was happy to accept the outcome. (For the record, were the situation reversed, I would have done the same thing.) Instead, I was busy thinking about what my next character would be if you failed the roll. ;) Martin, you neglected to mention (or notice) how quiet Don was during said discussion. I wasn’t going to input any bias as to what the group should do one way or the other; although my character was clearly affected by the outcome, I did’t think it was appropriate to dictate what the group should do simply because it was my character. The group came up with the idea and the resolution by yourselves and I was happy to accept the outcome. (For the record, were the situation reversed, I would have done the same thing.)

Instead, I was busy thinking about what my next character would be if you failed the roll. ;)

]]> By: VV_GM http://www.treasuretables.org/2007/01/when-pcs-are-on-the-line-talk-it-out/comment-page-1#comment-9196 VV_GM Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:07:59 +0000 http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=614#comment-9196 Sounds like Sam is the kind of GM I'd like to have as a player! Your story suggests that he has a level of understanding that the GMs role is not to compete with the players directly in combat, but to ensure that the NPCs and mosters are competitive with the players while he as the GM ensures that the combat is done fairly. I think taking the time to discuss options with a player is good for a scene in which the rules play a big factor. I try to encourage players to make decisions quickly so that the game isn't slowed down, but if a complex action is being taken I like to spend a little mro time explaining what the roll is for and how it will be influenced. Sounds like Sam is the kind of GM I’d like to have as a player! Your story suggests that he has a level of understanding that the GMs role is not to compete with the players directly in combat, but to ensure that the NPCs and mosters are competitive with the players while he as the GM ensures that the combat is done fairly.

I think taking the time to discuss options with a player is good for a scene in which the rules play a big factor. I try to encourage players to make decisions quickly so that the game isn’t slowed down, but if a complex action is being taken I like to spend a little mro time explaining what the roll is for and how it will be influenced.

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