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	<title>Comments on: Dicing With Dragons on the Crisis Point</title>
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	<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point</link>
	<description>Game mastering advice, ideas &#038; resources &#8226; Dedicated to helping GMs</description>
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		<title>By: The Four-Legged Stool - Treasure Tables</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point/comment-page-1#comment-2376</link>
		<dc:creator>The Four-Legged Stool - Treasure Tables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=318#comment-2376</guid>
		<description>[...] On the TT post Dicing With Dragons on the Crisis Point, Troy Taylor commented about the &#8220;three-legged stool of a cohesive roleplaying experience.&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] On the TT post Dicing With Dragons on the Crisis Point, Troy Taylor commented about the &#8220;three-legged stool of a cohesive roleplaying experience.&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point/comment-page-1#comment-2186</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2006 17:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=318#comment-2186</guid>
		<description>Hi Martin,

I often joke that when people are focusing too hard on surface issues, that they&#039;re, &quot;arguing the length of elf ears&quot;, which is what I feel with DWD&#039;s assessment of the gamer&#039;s crisis.

It&#039;s much more simple than that- first, is the game giving enough fun for the effort put in?  

This is a combination of who you&#039;re playing with and the rules you&#039;re playing by.  People are willing to put in a little more effort initially for nearly anything, because they expect it to be a bit difficult at first and things to get easier as they master it.  If you have to fight the rules or the people at the table constantly, it doesn&#039;t get easier, and it only wears you down.

Second, most rpgs assume a longterm commitment from the get-go.  I like eating pasta, but man, I wouldn&#039;t want to eat pasta steadily for a year on end...  In the same sense, you might be in the mood for a certain game, after enough time, one or more people in the group might lose interest.  Instead of either planning short term arcs that can be switched out from easily, or honestly giving advice to close up and move on, people are expected to trudge through and things will magically get better.  People need variety and sometimes a break.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Martin,</p>
<p>I often joke that when people are focusing too hard on surface issues, that they&#8217;re, &#8220;arguing the length of elf ears&#8221;, which is what I feel with DWD&#8217;s assessment of the gamer&#8217;s crisis.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s much more simple than that- first, is the game giving enough fun for the effort put in?  </p>
<p>This is a combination of who you&#8217;re playing with and the rules you&#8217;re playing by.  People are willing to put in a little more effort initially for nearly anything, because they expect it to be a bit difficult at first and things to get easier as they master it.  If you have to fight the rules or the people at the table constantly, it doesn&#8217;t get easier, and it only wears you down.</p>
<p>Second, most rpgs assume a longterm commitment from the get-go.  I like eating pasta, but man, I wouldn&#8217;t want to eat pasta steadily for a year on end&#8230;  In the same sense, you might be in the mood for a certain game, after enough time, one or more people in the group might lose interest.  Instead of either planning short term arcs that can be switched out from easily, or honestly giving advice to close up and move on, people are expected to trudge through and things will magically get better.  People need variety and sometimes a break.</p>
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		<title>By: Dicing With Dragons on Fiction and Gaming - Treasure Tables</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point/comment-page-1#comment-2180</link>
		<dc:creator>Dicing With Dragons on Fiction and Gaming - Treasure Tables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2006 13:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=318#comment-2180</guid>
		<description>[...] This will probably be my last look at Dicing With Dragons, the 1982 introduction to RPGs that we&#8217;ve discussed in Dicing With Dragons on the Crisis Point and DWD on Published Scenarios &#8212; the GMing chapter is only nine pages long, after all.   The good news is that, whether your favorite book or film is Lord of the Rings, Dune, 2001, Star Wars, the Darkover series &#8212; whatever &#8212; then you can re-create it through roleplaying. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This will probably be my last look at Dicing With Dragons, the 1982 introduction to RPGs that we&#8217;ve discussed in Dicing With Dragons on the Crisis Point and DWD on Published Scenarios &#8212; the GMing chapter is only nine pages long, after all.   The good news is that, whether your favorite book or film is Lord of the Rings, Dune, 2001, Star Wars, the Darkover series &#8212; whatever &#8212; then you can re-create it through roleplaying. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point/comment-page-1#comment-2151</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 22:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=318#comment-2151</guid>
		<description>Good analysis, Troy. :)

As for the context behind &quot;interest&quot; in DWD, it&#039;s strictly rooted in the game world side of things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good analysis, Troy. <img src='http://www.treasuretables.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>As for the context behind &#8220;interest&#8221; in DWD, it&#8217;s strictly rooted in the game world side of things.</p>
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		<title>By: Troy Taylor aka Carolina</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point/comment-page-1#comment-2130</link>
		<dc:creator>Troy Taylor aka Carolina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 05:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=318#comment-2130</guid>
		<description>Ah, the three-legged stool of a cohesive roleplaying experience.

My take is slightly different:
1) Verisimiltude. A $10 word that describes the world, setting, as well as the actual gaming environment provided by the GM. 
2) Player buy-in. This is usually were game theorists talk about &quot;social contract&quot; stuff. But basically, it&#039;s the player &quot;interest,&quot; or active participation in the GM&#039;s world and the gaming experience as a whole. Player expectations are also part of the mix.
3) The Rules. How everything plays out mechanically. Even if GM and player do their part, if the rules are unfair, unbalanced or just plain broken, the experience can also be ruined.
The seat the legs hold up is the payoff: Was the game rewarding? 

The &quot;crisis point,&quot; though, doesn&#039;t solely depend on these three factors, in my opinion. 

Clearly, a failure in any of the three legs will cause the stool to topple. 

But even if all three legs are firm, the participant still must deal with outside forces, personality issues among the players, real world obligations, financial constraints, etc. 

Participants must weigh the time invested vs. enjoyment gained (the old four hours of gaming for 20 minutes of fun argument). This factor, more than any other, is the true &quot;crisis point&quot; for any rpg participant. But the GM is particularly vulnerable, because they, generally, are making the biggest investment in the enterprise. But the same is true for players as well. 

The confusion, for me, stems from what context the above definition for &quot;interest&quot; actually refers. &quot;... interest derives from having reasons for what happens in the world ...&quot; Does this mean the (game) world or the (real) world? If the latter, then I think the entire paragraph has more validity. But judging from the above comments, many of us presume we&#039;re talking about interest in the (game) world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, the three-legged stool of a cohesive roleplaying experience.</p>
<p>My take is slightly different:<br />
1) Verisimiltude. A $10 word that describes the world, setting, as well as the actual gaming environment provided by the GM.<br />
2) Player buy-in. This is usually were game theorists talk about &#8220;social contract&#8221; stuff. But basically, it&#8217;s the player &#8220;interest,&#8221; or active participation in the GM&#8217;s world and the gaming experience as a whole. Player expectations are also part of the mix.<br />
3) The Rules. How everything plays out mechanically. Even if GM and player do their part, if the rules are unfair, unbalanced or just plain broken, the experience can also be ruined.<br />
The seat the legs hold up is the payoff: Was the game rewarding? </p>
<p>The &#8220;crisis point,&#8221; though, doesn&#8217;t solely depend on these three factors, in my opinion. </p>
<p>Clearly, a failure in any of the three legs will cause the stool to topple. </p>
<p>But even if all three legs are firm, the participant still must deal with outside forces, personality issues among the players, real world obligations, financial constraints, etc. </p>
<p>Participants must weigh the time invested vs. enjoyment gained (the old four hours of gaming for 20 minutes of fun argument). This factor, more than any other, is the true &#8220;crisis point&#8221; for any rpg participant. But the GM is particularly vulnerable, because they, generally, are making the biggest investment in the enterprise. But the same is true for players as well. </p>
<p>The confusion, for me, stems from what context the above definition for &#8220;interest&#8221; actually refers. &#8220;&#8230; interest derives from having reasons for what happens in the world &#8230;&#8221; Does this mean the (game) world or the (real) world? If the latter, then I think the entire paragraph has more validity. But judging from the above comments, many of us presume we&#8217;re talking about interest in the (game) world.</p>
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		<title>By: Crazy Jerome</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point/comment-page-1#comment-2123</link>
		<dc:creator>Crazy Jerome</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 16:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=318#comment-2123</guid>
		<description>I think &quot;crisis point&quot; is hyperbole.  Or at least everyone doesn&#039;t get one, any more than everyone &quot;has a mid-life crisis&quot;.

If someone engages in a hobby that sparks a lot of interest, there will be bumps in the road.  Enthusiasm for the hobby, energy in general, time available, etc. are not constant.  Whether these bumps are minor, significant, or develop into something approaching a crisis will depend mainly on the situation and the individual GM (and even his players).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think &#8220;crisis point&#8221; is hyperbole.  Or at least everyone doesn&#8217;t get one, any more than everyone &#8220;has a mid-life crisis&#8221;.</p>
<p>If someone engages in a hobby that sparks a lot of interest, there will be bumps in the road.  Enthusiasm for the hobby, energy in general, time available, etc. are not constant.  Whether these bumps are minor, significant, or develop into something approaching a crisis will depend mainly on the situation and the individual GM (and even his players).</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point/comment-page-1#comment-2110</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 22:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=318#comment-2110</guid>
		<description>DWD&#039;s definition of &quot;interest&quot; seems to be awfully close to its definition of &quot;believability&quot; -- probably too close for my tastes.

How does everyone feel about the overall argument, though -- that every GM faces a crisis point?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DWD&#8217;s definition of &#8220;interest&#8221; seems to be awfully close to its definition of &#8220;believability&#8221; &#8212; probably too close for my tastes.</p>
<p>How does everyone feel about the overall argument, though &#8212; that every GM faces a crisis point?</p>
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		<title>By: Rick the Wonder Algae</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point/comment-page-1#comment-2104</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick the Wonder Algae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 14:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=318#comment-2104</guid>
		<description>In my mind interest would be defined as:
&quot;Material that personally motivates the players.&quot;

I think otherwise this is an accurate assesment.  Yes, there are other problems that can cause a gaming group to fall to pieces, but they&#039;re liable to destroy things much earlier than when the concern for these comes into play.  These are more guidelines for keeping a continuing campaign going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my mind interest would be defined as:<br />
&#8220;Material that personally motivates the players.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think otherwise this is an accurate assesment.  Yes, there are other problems that can cause a gaming group to fall to pieces, but they&#8217;re liable to destroy things much earlier than when the concern for these comes into play.  These are more guidelines for keeping a continuing campaign going.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris F.</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point/comment-page-1#comment-2103</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 13:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=318#comment-2103</guid>
		<description>The definitions for believability and balance make sense, but I think the definition for interest is way off. Interest might be: &quot;Subject matter that draws the players into the game.&quot;

I agree with the author&#039;s point, but I think there is more to it than just believability, interest, and balance. I mean, your GM can be a total bastard, but hit these three things perfectly, and you might start looking for other hobbies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The definitions for believability and balance make sense, but I think the definition for interest is way off. Interest might be: &#8220;Subject matter that draws the players into the game.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with the author&#8217;s point, but I think there is more to it than just believability, interest, and balance. I mean, your GM can be a total bastard, but hit these three things perfectly, and you might start looking for other hobbies.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/05/dicing-with-dragons-on-the-crisis-point/comment-page-1#comment-2102</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 13:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.treasuretables.org/?p=318#comment-2102</guid>
		<description>FWIW, I completely spaced about the book and thought you were talking about another blog, i.e. something that&#039;s been written very recently. If not for the line at the end about 1982 and corresponding link to the post about the book, I&#039;d probably still be under that impression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, I completely spaced about the book and thought you were talking about another blog, i.e. something that&#8217;s been written very recently. If not for the line at the end about 1982 and corresponding link to the post about the book, I&#8217;d probably still be under that impression.</p>
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